CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor, and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ 124-87 victory over the Miami Heat in Game 3 of the playoffs. It’s the Cavs’ third largest win in playoff history and the Heat’s worst postseason loss in their franchise’s history. Miami fans showed a level of acceptance regarding their team’s performance.Ty Jerome’s performance off the bench was pivotal for the Cavs.De’Andre Hunter stepped up significantly in Darius Garland’s absence.The Cavs’ adaptability in defense was crucial against Miami’s offense.Miami’s struggles were evident as they failed to remain competitive.The Cavs dominated the rebounding and paint battles against Miami.Donovan Mitchell’s low scoring did not hinder the Cavs’ success.The conversation in the Cavs’ locker room reflected their confidence moving forward. Max Strus embodies the competitive spirit needed in playoffs.Dean Wade’s defensive impact is vital for the Cavs in future playoff series and it was on display Saturday.Health is a critical factor in playoff success.The best team doesn’t always win, timing and health matter.Cavs have the potential to beat the Celtics if healthy.Team chemistry and camaraderie enhance performance.Cavs are proving they can win in various ways. Listen using the player below: If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here. You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well. Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And we’re coming to you guys after the Cavs 12487 win over the Miami Heats in Game 3. It is the third largest win in Cavs playoff history. Obviously Chris Fedor was on the scene in Miami getting to test out the waters. Chris, I know it was a 1pm start, felt like the arena was empty from what I saw on the tv. And then after the nine point lead and the Cavs kind of ran back with an 180 run of their own, it didn’t feel like it took too long for the seats that were already basically empty to actually become depleted. What was the vibe like in the arena and what was the vibe like after the Cavs kind of came back from the Miami Heat’s first punch and answered it with their own? Chris Fedor: I think the vibe in the arena is the same vibe that Miami has given off throughout the course of this series. It’s a level of acceptance. They understand what they’re up against. They understand that they have to play near perfect basketball just to stay competitive with the Cavs. The Cavs are the number one seed in the Eastern Conference. They won 64 games in the regular season. Miami came in as the eight seed. They had to play their way into the playoffs through the play in tournament by winning both games. So when Miami, you know, goes down 20 in the series and it shifts to Miami, obviously the fans are excited at the very beginning, but it’s on the home team to continue to give them reasons to believe it’s on the home team to continue to give them reasons to roar and cheer and think that there’s some chance, no matter how small, some chance that they can remain competitive in the series and their season doesn’t end on Monday night. But they didn’t give them that belief. They didn’t play that kind of way. There’s no reason for anybody, whether it’s in the Miami locker room, whether it’s the Miami media, whether it’s the Miami fans to think that this is going to be some other outcome at this point other than a sweep because they’re just not good enough. Jimmy Watkins: As an aside, the Chris point about the atmosphere that’s Is it still the, is it still the American Airlines? Chris Fedor: It is not. It’s the Cassia Center. Jimmy Watkins: Of course it’s not everything we need. Like I get, I’m cool. I can get on the concept of sponsor named arenas. I think it’s kind of lame generally, but, like, can we at least have some consistency? I don’t even know what. What is a can say. What is that? What is that? Chris Fedor: Yeah, when the Steelers. Jimmy Watkins: The Steelers had Heinz feel. It’s like, okay, you named your football stadium after ketchup. That’s kind of weird. But like, it becomes part of your identity and then they change it to accurate. What is that? Whatever. Before the, Speaking of football, before the Browns melted my brain earlier today and I was writing about basketball, I did write it was something about he’d have lost seven straight home playoff games, which is just an astonishing statistic for such a proud organization. Right. And I think that has something to do with the fact that the Heat have been kind of meh the last couple years. Although they did make the Finals, what, two years ago, three years ago. It’s the Nuggets. But it also, there’s something about the Heat atmosphere. Like their fans are known for getting there late. They’re. The infamous story is during the game where Ray Allen hit the create the most. One of the most famous three pointers in NBA history, where hordes of people trying to get back in the arena because they had left early. I just think that sucks. And I think that would never happen in Cleveland. You can say, and you can, you can have some validity in saying that maybe Cleveland cares a little too much about its pro sport teams. But I’d rather have it that way than the other way if I was a player. You know what I mean? That’s just an aside. Cab’s really good, man. The defense they were playing during the. Whatever crazy run they went on, I know it was 18 0. That was like the consecutive run and was. I think it was 27. 5 overall. The defense they were playing during that run was sickening. The Heat just couldn’t go anywhere. They couldn’t get anything done. There’s a little bit of an I don’t want to spend too much. There’s a little bit of an awkward truth in here about, like, man, the defense looks a lot better when Darius isn’t out there, which is like common logic because it’s one guy less to pick on. And I should also say that while that is true, it’s also true and more true that the Cavs need Darius to get to everything that they aspire to get to with this team. Right. But man, the defense was so good. And Ty Jerome. Ty Jerome. Okay, so Tyrone had 13 points, 11 assists tonight. It’s a great stat line double double off the bench. You Love to see that. But to me, the, I tweeted this during the game. The true hallmark of a great bench guy is like, how did, how does the game change right when you come in and it. Every single time Ty Drum comes in, whether he, whether he lights you up for 28 like he did in game one, whether he has an off shooting day like he did in Game two, or today when he’s just doing a little bit of everything, like the flow, the energy, everything about the game changes. That’s like the, I think that’s like the truest, the truest spirit of a six man is that I’m, I’m always aware when you check into the game because it just feels different. It feels different. The Cavs went on, started going on that run almost as soon as he came into that game. He was on, he was, he let, he. I don’t know that he, he catalyzed the run that ended the game essentially because it was over really quick. Ethan Sands: Just to give a, a couple of stats based on what you finished up with there, Jimmy. For Ty Jerome, he had the most assists by a bench player in Cavs playoff history today against the Miami heat with the 11 assists that he finished with. He also became the first Cavs reserve to post a double double in a playoff game since Tristan Thompson had 14 points and 12 rebounds against Toronto on May 1, 2018. The other portion of what you were mentioning that I wanted to get into that was clear for Miami’s struggle was the Cavs defense, right? And we have known them to have the switch heavy defense. We’ve known them to have all these different principles put into place by Kenny Atkinson to help them be successful. But what Davion Mitchell mentioned after the game was that the Cavs switch things up a little bit by clogging the paint a little bit more, forcing the Heat into tougher shots, into mid ranges and into difficult shots from the perimeter against the Cavs point of attack defenders Max Strus, Dean Wade. We’ll get into those two guys individually in a second, Chris. When we talk about the defensive pressure that the Cavs put on them. Eric Spoelstra even mentioned how the defense was a big portion of what made the Cavs force the Miami Heat into submission a little bit. What did you see was the biggest change that the Cavs made and how important has it been for Kenny Atkinson to fluctuate that throughout the season to allow the Cavs to make that change so seamlessly in a playoff environment? Chris Fedor: I mean, guys, I just think the great defenses in in the NBA and in the playoffs, they. They just don’t continue to give the opponent the same look. You just don’t want that opponent to continue to get more and more comfortable. So when it comes to Tyler Herro, there’s a certain kind of way that you’re going to guard him one night, then you’re going to throw different looks and different defenders at him another night. You know, the big buzzword in the locker room following tonight’s game or this afternoon’s game was that the Cavs were top locking Tyler Hero and making it really, really difficult just for him to get touches and just for him to get catches. But. But I think it all comes back to, like, one thing, actually two things. I think. Number one, it shows the adaptability and flexibility that Kenny Atkinson has, and we knew that. We knew that about him. We knew that he was going to continue to do a bunch of different things offensively, a bunch of different things defensively. But it also comes down to this. Just like Miami knows what they’re up against, the Cavs know what they’re up against, and the Cavs recognize how limited Miami is offensively. And there just aren’t a lot of guys on this offense for Miami that the Cavs are all that worried about. You know, there were players in the locker room following this afternoon’s game that were asking me, like, why isn’t Duncan Robinson playing more in this series? And, you know, my rebuttal was that he was cooked on defense, and in game two, he was part of the Miami defense that allowed you guys to score 43 points in the second quarter and make 11 threes because he was put into every single action and because he couldn’t keep up with anybody that he was guarding and he was a targeted player. And every time that Duncan is in the game, Miami feels like they’ve got to go zone just to protect him. And they don’t want to go zone against you guys because you’re just hit a bunch of threes the way that you did in game two. So, like, I think Miami’s in a situation where there’s so much give and take with a lot of these lineup and rotational decisions that they have. But then the players that I was talking to in the locker room, they were saying, well, yeah, okay, the defense thing is fine, but you got to score 100 at some point and you got to score 100 consistently against us. And Duncan gives them three point shooting and he gives them spacing and he gives them movement and triggers within the offense and a threat that we have to worry about. But I think that also just boils down to the fact that, you know, sometimes you can be the best playoff chess master that there is and all you have are pawns that move the same way. So like what are you supposed to do? And when the Cavs just don’t have a level of respect for a lot of the players that are out there on the court and there’s only like two that they feel like they have to worry about, it makes it easier defensively, it keeps you from over helping, it allows you to stay disciplined, it allows you to be so locked into the game plan and it allows you to have the kind of defensive performance not that we’ve seen only today, but that we’ve seen throughout the course of the series for the Cavs and a. Ethan Sands: Point just to continue what you’re talking about with the defensive pressure on Tyler Herro, it’s how the Cavs were able to force him not to get DHOs right. They weren’t allowing him to come off pin downs, they weren’t allowing him any space. They were regarding him as a face guard basically up and down the floor. And Tyler Herro credited the Cavs after the game saying that they do it probably best in any team that he’s faced thus far, especially because they have the two bigs and Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. So whenever he does get through the interior or whatever, he’s getting hit or he knows that he’s going up against trees. And sure, Tyler Herro has to be credited with great finishing ability and his mid range isn’t one to sneeze at, but when you’re going up against the defensive player of the year and someone who would arguably be on a all defensive team, I think there’s an understanding of what areas they lack and how much more difficult it is because of the personnel that Chris was mentioning that the Cavs have. And when you’re able to hone in on one player like Tyler Herro, it makes everybody’s job around them easier, especially when they don’t have a guy to come off screens and run around like Max Stru or Duncan Robinson or Sam Merrill to be on the floor all the time and how that can affect the Cavs defense or make it easier in some senses. Jimmy, what were you got going on? Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, the Cavs are awesome defensively. When you have Dean Wade, Jared Allen, DeAndre Hunter or Dean Wade, DeAndre Henry and Evan Mobley out there as they did tonight, it’s not even just about being on the ball, it’s just like, when you have that much length out there, the help like, or even the illusion of help that they always have across the floor, it’s a lot to chew on. You feel like you have guys who are that big. It just feels. Sometimes it feels like they’re always there. Like they’re always in your path, even if they’re not. You know what I mean? Like, if you have the ball and you want to go left and the guy who’s in the corner is being guarded by Dean Wade, like, he’s just able to come. He’s able to cover more ground because of his length and his size. So it’s just like. It’s like a. It’s a mind game when you have guys like that out there all at the same time. To Chris’s point about knowing. Chris Fedor: Seeing ghosts because he gets hit so much in the park. Jimmy Watkins: Yes, honestly. And to Chris’s point about Miami, the Cavs using Miami’s personnel against them. Like, when you’re top blocking a guy. First of all, that for the listeners we’re talking. This is real inside basketball. Basically, you’re guarding him backwards. Like you’re sh. You want your. It’s normally ball you man, right? Chris Fedor: Yes. Jimmy Watkins: It’s like your. Your basics. This is ball you man, right? Like, whoever the ball is, wherever the ball is, that’s okay. You. You’re trying to stop Tyler Hero from coming out, getting a dho. One of the ways to counter that is to cut to the basket. Like, fake, come up, cut to the basket. Who’s passing him the ball? Yeah, that’s the question. Like, I mean, it would be. Bam is a good playmaker, and then Bam’s a good playmaker. Like, that’s. That’s what we’re talking about here. Chris Fedor: So he’s on a different planet for much of of today’s game, too. So that certainly didn’t. Miami’s have got this. Ethan Sands: Yeah, Bam had one assist at the end of today’s game. Jimmy Watkins: So you know how I know this series is over, though? I mean, I know it’s over because The Cavs are up 3 0, and Miami has been uncompetitive for long stretches of a lot of the series. Not. But, you know, I really know it’s over. The Heat made 16 threes, shot 47 from three. Khalel Ware and Bam made six of them, and they lost by 38. They scored 87 points. Chris Fedor: Good. Jimmy Watkins: You just don’t have. You’re drawing dead. You got nothing. Ethan Sands: Chris is trying to make fun of your Math. Especially because I gave the stat earlier. They lost by 37. Third. Third largest win. 37. Third largest win. But you’re good. You’re good. Jimmy Watkins: It felt like 38. It was 40. With a minute left. Chris Fedor: It was 40. Ethan Sands: It was bad. Chris Fedor: And Jaylon Tyson was celebrating after every mage shot. Man, that was pretty funny. Jimmy Watkins: Yeah. This thing is. It’s over. Chris Fedor: Here’s. Here’s another way that I know how it’s over. The primary conversation in the Cavs locker room following today’s game was the Browns drafting Shador Sanders and how pumped Donovan Mitchell was about Shador coming to Cleveland. So much so that he kept holding up his hand saying, what time is it, guys? What time is it, guys? It’s Jador time. So Donovan is in the process of trying to get a customized Shador Sanders jersey sent to him here in Miami so that he can wear it for pregame and post game when the Cavs finish off. What. What it feels like is going to be a sweep in the sense within the locker room is that this thing is going to be over on Monday. Jimmy Watkins: Speaking of Donovan, one more way to note the series over in case you’re. You’re still unsure. In case you’re still unsure. No. Darius Donovan scores nine points and the Cavs hang 124 on Miami. Chris Fedor: I was. I was sitting next to a Miami writer. Jimmy Watkins: God. Chris Fedor: And he was bringing that up over and over and over again. It’s like, what this would be a game that Miami theoretically would be able to hang. Like, how many games throughout the course of Donovan’s career, his playoff career, when he has that kind of egg laying, does his team go on to win by 37, 37, Jimmy. Not 38. And. And just like make it not a game for all, but the first six minutes, like in past years for Donovan, that leads to a loss, right? No, it was a route for the Cavs. And again, it just shows the depth. It’s. It shows the skill level, and it shows how overmatched Miami is in this series. Ethan Sands: And I want to continue breaking this down piece by piece. Right. And obviously we can work backwards. If you guys want to. Talking about when we knew the fact that Jaylon Tyson and Isaac Okoro start draining threes and start hitting shots, that it was over before that when fans started going to get their day drinking plans ready in Miami. Could have told you that by the third quarter, all these things. But I think when you talk about the players that have kind of shown themselves throughout the series and grown, obviously game one wasn’t great for DeAndre Hunter, but the last two games he’s shown how offensively productive he can be and how important he is to this team. Obviously, in today’s game, he had 21 points. He was 6 of 8 from the field to help ask what Donovan Mitchell’s 13 points weren’t able to accomplish. Right. So you talk about how Darius Garland wasn’t there. Donovan and DeAndre, as DeAndre mentioned after the game, had a conversation before the game talking about how he would be needed to pick up a little bit of the slack left by Darius Garland. And obviously we’ve also talked with Jimmy on this podcast before. His rebounding numbers haven’t been great throughout his career, but for him to grab four rebounds, sure, you’re 6 foot 8. We want you to see you get more, but I. I still think. I think it’s definitely a step in the right direction. Right. Evan Mobley having six rebounds is a little bit precarious. I also think Max Dr. Grabbing nine boards is huge in that department in an area where the Cavs just simply dominated not only on the boards, but also in the paint as a whole. Right. Cleveland won the rebounding battle 46 to 29, and they won the paint battle, doubling the Miami heats point 60 to 30, which I think is huge. But Chris, when you talk about DeAndre coming to basically show what he’s capable of on the both sides of the floor. Ty Jerome talks about it after the game, how he has expected this. He’s seen it for the last 10 years, all these things. But to actually see it in a playoff environment, especially at the latter half of a series, how important is that for someone to get confidence like this, especially going into another series against a more formidable opponent? Chris Fedor: Well, I think the thing when it comes to DeAndre, guys, is he’s just a blender, and he’s been a blender throughout his entire career. Okay, what does Virginia need from me? I’m going to do it. What does Atlanta need from me? I’m going to try and do that. Need me to start, need me to come off the bench, need me to play 3, 4, 5, whatever. Like, his level of versatility and the different kinds of things that he’s capable of at both ends of the floor, like, that is so valuable to Kenny Atkinson when it comes to constructing lineups, that is so valuable to the Cavs. And you know, DeAndre was still doing some of those things in the first two games, but he just wasn’t getting the touches, he wasn’t getting the usage within the offense. And I think, you know, one of the byproducts of Darius Garland missing is that all of a sudden somebody else like DeAndre has more room within the offense. The Cavs used him to hunt mismatches. He’s been capable of that. That’s something that he does do. But there’s now more opportunity for him with a high usage ball. Dominant player missing from the game. So he was able to get the ball in the post, he was able to get the ball at the elbow. He had room to attack. And through the first two games of this series against Miami, he had 51 total touches. Now, the numbers aren’t updated yet when it comes to the tracking data from NBA.com but if you do the math on that, Sorry about that, Jimmy. 25 touches per game basically in the first two. It felt like he got that many during his first run when he checked into the game because he was so involved offensively. And I think that just speaks to, you know, why, why DeAndre is so important and why the Cavs went out to get him. Like, if Darius is having an off night, you have the luxury of a 19 point per game scorer in DeAndre that you can unleash in a different way and then you can run your offense a different kind of way. You don’t have to go pick and roll stuff. You don’t have to go dhos with max struts. And it’s just the level of creativity within the Cavs offense and the level of flexibility within their offense and the level of diversity within their offense. It just felt like in this series and in today’s game, there were so many ways that they were attacking Miami’s defense. And at some point you’re Miami and you’re like, oh my God, now what’s coming? Like we gotta deal with Ty Jerome and the high pick and roll stuff. We gotta deal with DeAndre Hunter, like exploiting mismatches in the mid post and at the elbow. We got to deal with DeAndre Hunter being able to beat Andrew Wiggins off the dribble. Like there are just so many different ways that the Cavs can attack. And for DeAndre, it’s not always going to be about scoring points. It’s just try to make an impact any way that you possibly can. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that DeAndre’s best season of his career, guys came when Atlanta made an organizational decision to get him away from Trey Young. And it’s not him and Trey Young didn’t get along. It’s Just trade dominated so many possessions for Atlanta and he was responsible for so much of the offense for Atlanta that there just wasn’t as much room for DeAndre to flourish. They turn him into a six man, they have him come off the bench, he’s surrounded by different people. They need more of his offense, they need more of his dribble game. They need more of some of the stuff that we saw today. And he has a career year and he’s in the running for six man before he gets traded to the Cavs. So DeAndre is capable of these things. We’ve seen it in Atlanta and we’ve seen it with the Cavs. It’s just he needs that room to operate. And if the Cavs feel like they can exploit Miami in a different kind of way in the first two games with Darius and Donovan and what they were doing in the pick and roll and just making Miami’s defense look completely lost when it came to defending the pick and roll, then you don’t need as much of the other stuff from offense that DeAndre can bring to you. Then it’s about defend, then, then it’s about rebound, then it’s about switch, then it’s about play some small ball, four, some small ball center. So I do think DeAndre is capable of this. I do think that there are certain matchups, guys that are going to call for him being this kind of DeAndre that we saw earlier today. It’s just I didn’t feel like until Darius injured his toe and missed the game that the Cavs needed the, this version of DeAndre against Miami because they were just dismantling Miami’s pick and roll defense in such a way that Eric Spolzer had to change a whole bunch of things schematically going into game two. But yeah, he’s definitely capable of this. And to have somebody like this capable of that when you move forward against Indiana or Milwaukee, then against Boston in the conference finals, probably, man, what a luxury to have. Jimmy Watkins: It’s one thing to be capable though. It’s another to, to have the confidence that comes with having done it in playoffs in your current context. And in that way, you know, we all, like I said, it’s. It’s much more true that the Cavs need everything Darius brings than it is true that it was. There were some silver linings of him not playing today, one of them being that DeAndre gets to have this moment. He gets to take a bigger piece of the offensive pie. I just think it’s a tricky thing for the, the Cavs to have gone through this series and not fully unlocked DeAndre or tried to. That would have been a tricky thing. Now, now that they’ve, now that we’ve seen it, you know, this is. It’s scary, the different kind of optionality and both ends that he brings to the team. And this is, this is what we were talking about, like the, the concept of this first round series being an extension of the regular season. Like, you just. You can try to beat. You know you’re going to beat Miami, so try to beat them different ways in. In ways that accentuates different players on the team, that empowers different players on the team that will prepare them for what’s to come. Now, again, obviously, Miami is not as good as Indiana, slash Milwaukee, who looked a little. They got life over there in game three last night, or Boston down the road. But again, like I said, to start, it’s. It’s just a different thing to have done it than it is to be capable of it. I also just want to say, you guys hear what Chris was saying about Trae Young. Distance yourself. Distance yourself from Trae Young. Enjoy success. Ethan Sands: All right, Jimmy. We’re not going to go too far into that, but I know we have. We’ve talked a lot about the trash talk that transpired between games after game two when Darius Garland called out what the Cavs offensive scheme was to attack Tyler Herro. But I do think it’s important to note that he’s not the first one to throw a shot in this series or of this series. Right before the series began or before game one. I believe it was Bam Adebayo that said, I don’t give a bleep about Max Str. Right? Not necessarily. Jimmy Watkins: Is that a shot? Is that a shot or is because. So Max Dr. When he got here, Max Dr. Was already tired of people asking him about Heat culture. And I’m sure every time the Cavs and he’d have played over the last two years, someone’s asked, Bam, wait, what do you. What’s it like to play your old buddy Max Schroes? And now it’s a playoff series, so it’s magnified. And the Cavs have been saying Max has been more vocal in film sessions because he knows this team. And it’s just like, I think he just gets old. And Bam. Bam’s like a get down to business type of guy. Ethan Sands: You didn’t let me get there. But the clip didn’t entirely show that Bam was clearly joking, clearly laughing. So it wasn’t necessarily a shot. But I would just say it wasn’t the first sign of smack talk that was given from Darius Garland. My point was if anybody in the Miami Heat organization didn’t care, Max Truce made them care in game three. 18 points, nine rebounds and five assists. He had four threes. Clearly knows what it means to be in this caliber of an environment. It was his first playoff game back in Miami. I just think not for the smack talk, not for anything. Max Drew’s lighting a fire under himself. Getting to this standard of play and knowing his value for this team is extremely important. And I know Kenny Atkinson called him the ultimate role player. And Chris, I wanted you to delve into that a little bit more because I know you wrote about that for the site after tonight’s game. Chris Fedor: So I think there are two things. The first thing we can’t go without talking about Darius comment. There were multiple people inside this organization that were unhappy about those comments. They were rolling their eyes at those comments. Jimmy Watkins: How old does Darius seem in that moment? We’re playing the Darius age game all week. How old does he seem in that moment? Chris Fedor: I mean, it was a conversation coming into these playoffs just about the maturity of Darius, the growth of Darius, and as Jimmy said, Kenny Atkinson saying, we need him to play like a 28 year old. So there were eye rolls inside the organization when Darius made those comments. Not because the Cavs said, oh my God, we gave Miami Bullets in board material and they’re going to use that to their advantage and then they’re going to beat us in game three. But it was. Jimmy Watkins: Now they’re going to know we’re going after Tyler Herro. Chris Fedor: Oh, no. Right. As if they haven’t known that the entire series, it was just like, come on, man, like these are the playoffs. We gotta watch the things that we say, we’ve gotta be professional, we’ve gotta be mature about these kinds of things. Those are comments more for after a series ends, not as a series is going on. So that’s first and foremost. And you know, it was also unfortunate from Darius perspective that those came the other night and he didn’t play in game three. So that’s, that’s not the best look in the world in, in saying all of that, you know, for Tyler Hero, you’re going back at Darius. Obviously he fired the first shot, but you’re going back at Darius. You’re kind of putting the spotlight on you. You’re putting the pressure on you. You’re talking all this stuff like you got to back it up, right? There are certain people who are about that life. There are certain people who are capable of handling that level of responsibility. And it was not a great look for Tyler Herro either. Coming off the heels of what he was saying in response to Darius, to have the kind of game that he did, it just felt like a guy who couldn’t back up some of the stuff that he was saying. So to get back to Max strust Now, like two years ago, exactly two years ago, the Cavs lost Game 5 to the New York Knicks. And it was a series that exposed so many of their flaws. And one of those was a lack of experience, playoff experience. Another one of those was a lack of shooting. Another one of those was a lack of toughness. And I’m not here to go back to two years ago because this is a different team, this is a different coach, this is a different system, these are different players. But that series led the Cavs to Max juice. That series made them go out and put him number one on their free agent target list. And you’re seeing why today was an example, why they felt like he complimented the core four. That’s why he’s been in the starting lineup for a majority of his time with gaps. They felt like they needed an adult. They felt like they needed somebody with playoff experience, big game, playoff experience, aside from Donovan Mitchell. They needed somebody who has thrived in big moments at various points throughout their career. And even if thrived might be a little bit too strong of a word, like can own those big moments and isn’t rattled or phased in those moments. And you know, Max is somebody who is going to continue to be very, very important to the success of this team. And like, I know sometimes people are like, why is he in the starting lineup? Why is he getting so many minutes? Is he a try hard guy on defense or is he actually a good defender? Like all of those things are fair discussions to have, but his impact is felt throughout this organization. And like today was an example of maturity, today was an example of focus. The Cavs have been here in Miami for the last couple of days. They had a comfortable 20 series lead. They are playing against a team that is clearly overmatched. Where the Cavs could simply say, I’m going to overlook this opponent, maybe we’re not going to bring it to the same level that we have in the first two games because we’re away from Cleveland. We don’t have the crowd on our side. We are going on the road. Miami has historically been a very difficult place for the Cavs to win basketball games. And I felt like Max Struse helped set the tone of just like we’re going to compete our asses off today. We might not make shots, they started 2 of 10 from the field. We might not have the same flow offensively because we don’t have our all star point guard. But we are going to compete our asses off and we are going to be focused and we are going to play with a level of maturity. We’re going to show the growth that we have made in all these different areas. And, and that’s to me that’s what beyond the cutting, beyond the continuous movement, beyond the floor spacing, beyond the three point shooting, that’s what Max represents to this team. That’s what Max does so well for this team. That’s what they needed in the summer of 2023 when they went out and they gave him a four year $63 million deal. And there’s just a level of competitiveness that, that Max demands from this team. Donovan Mitchell calls him Heat culture. That is the nickname that Donovan has for Max and Max hates it. But like all of the stuff that that Miami has been about for multiple decades, like Max has brought that to the Cavs and you feel that from this team and I felt like today kind of highlighted that. Jimmy Watkins: So. So on the Max point I first of all, I just want to commend both him and the Cavs because a lot of guys who the Heat uncover, let’s say they do this all the time with undrafted guys, second round picks, guys you’ve never heard of, that they turn into useful rotation player like Haywood Highsmith’s another one they turn into useful rotation players and then they play so well in some of these playoff series they price themselves out of Miami’s range and they go somewhere else and darn it if they don’t look a lot different outside of Heat culture. Like that’s that to me one of the biggest testaments to he testaments to Heat culture is how different some of these role players look in other contexts. That is not them but Max. And by the way, Max was a prime candidate for this regression because his sample size of performance was pretty small when he got to the Cav. Talk about two regular seasons, one really good playoff run and the shooting always good volume but really hanging around that 35, 36% like fringe, good shooter again, high volume. And I know the Cavs prioritize volume but you know he now he’s was he this year 38 approaching 39 the playoffs. He’s shooting like 50, 50. A little bit different. A little bit different. So like, that’s a credit to Max for being a self starter, for having the motor that Chris talked about. That’s a credit to Kobe Altman for identifying the traits in Max that were transferable and also fostering a culture top down that can maybe bring out similar traits in Max. So I want to say that first of all, to the Darius point, I’m going to try and weave the Darius point into the Max point. First of all, this is the most pointless trash talking conversation ever. Like, no, you can’t guard anybody. No, you can’t guard anybody. But you really, you really can’t guard anybody. We’re gonna attack you. We’re gonna attack you. Who cares, man? Like, neither of you are really backing it up. Because even if Tyler Hero dropped 40 today, the Cav still would have hunted his ass for 40 minutes. Like, it doesn’t matter. You’re not proving anybody wrong there. You just like. And by the way, like, I think both of these guys mean well. Like, they both try. They just have physical limitations and they have big workloads at the offensive end. That makes it hard to expend all the energy that teams are asking them to expend on the defensive end. This is just a fact of life for both of them. Defense is going to be hard. So it is funny for both of them, regardless of what happens in the game that follows, to take shots at either one of them. That’s just wanted to say that part. I think it’s. I think it’s funny that this became a thing at all because I’m not even sure Darius was being serious when he first made this. I mean, I remember sitting there, he’s in. It was like a smaller scrum than usual because I think they were taking Evan Mobley to the podium while Darius was talking and he said it and I was like, man, that was a weird thing to say. And then the, the interview ended shortly thereafter and Jared Weiss from the Athletic went over to Darius responsible reporting thing to do. He said, hey man, like, what was that about? Like? And he’s like, are you and Tyler friends or something? And Darius like, oh, yeah, Tyler’s my dog. So it could have been like a. This could be like a bit something of like a bam out of bio. We’re taking this a little bit. Maybe there’s a little bit of a bigger deal than it. You still said it though, and it’s true. So it’s gonna strike a nerve as it did. Tyler Hero Took it to the next level. And so you could say if. If you’re pro Darius, if you are Darius and someone brings this to you and you’re like, I’m just kidding. Is this the time to be joking? That’s the question. Are the playoffs or like, you’re supposed. Chris Fedor: This is. Jimmy Watkins: This is big time winning time, legacy time. And you’re cracking jokes about the other team’s deficiencies in public. And the series not over yet. It obviously is now, but, like, at 2, oh, you never know. Stuff would go wrong. And this is where I want to bring back in the Max truce point. Because this is a very chummy, funny, fun to be around basketball team. These post game locker rooms after they win, it’s just fun to hang out in there. It’s just fun to watch basketball with these guys. It’s fun to watch them interact with each other. It’s clear they genuinely like each other. We’ve had the chemistry conversation all year. That’s important. Laughing, joking, liking your teammates, that’s a bonus. But you need to be able to modulate that. And I think Max, I’d throw Donovan in this. In this pool, too. I think those two are both the best on the team at modulating it. Like, Max. Max will throw you a few barbs. He was making fun of Ethan’s shoes the other day in the locker room. And by the way, Ethan’s shoes look great. He was. They were just bright. And Max hit him with a. What are those? So Max can be fun too, but he knows when it’s time to lock in, and I think that’s contagious. And I think him and Dot, like, it’s hard for one guy to do that. Like, obviously you’re gonna follow the cues of your superstar, but Max has a seriousness about him that, like, you don’t want to be on the wrong end of. You know what I mean? So I think. I think that’s really, really important. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s one. People want someone who has a conversation with Darius about something like this. Ethan Sands: Jimmy, to your point, since we’re on the nickname of Heat culture and all these things, like, there are some players that, like, come to the Heat and, like, become Heat culture. And then there’s other guys that have always had this competitive fire and need somewhere to use it as an outlet. Max Strufs. Jimmy Watkins: Then there’s guys like Andrew Wiggins who need a little bit more Heat culture, you know, 100%. Ethan Sands: I feel like Max Strust and Jimmy Butler are two guys that, like, always had that competitive fight, they just needed an outlet for it, right? So Max was going to take that wherever he was. And we know Jimmy Butler has literally taken that wherever he was. So it’s not just because he was there that Max Truce became this player. Like, no, it was just a place that he was that where he kind of lit up on the scene and as Jimmy mentioned, priced himself out of what Miami was going to be able to offer him. So I just think he’s been a crucial piece and I think Chris broke it down really, really well. And if you need to read more about or hear more about Max Drews, check that out on our website. But what I think the next biggest takeaway, especially for the defensive portion of today’s game, was Dean Wade’s impact defensively, not only against Tyler Herro, but also just being a switch big in those minutes without Evan Mobley, without Jared Allen being one of those bigs on the floor. I think it spoke to the value that he has to this team team as a defender because he still hasn’t made a shot on the offensive end throughout this series. But it hasn’t mattered. Kenny Atkinson scolded him in game one because of him not getting a rebound. We’ve talked about this a couple of different times on this podcast now, but today, and obviously without Darius Garland, you get a little bit more minutes fluctuated throughout the lineup. But I felt like Dean Wade earned those minutes, right? Sam Merrill only played 19 minutes tonight, even though we know Sam Arrow is one of Kenny Atkinson’s favorite players on the roster, favorite players to use in this roster. But Dean Wade fit the criteria. The defensive scheme that Kenny Atkinson was going to. And for me, it was big to see him go away from Sam in moments like this, because we know that even throughout the season, there were times where we would question, why is Sam Merrill still on the floor? Even if he’s hitting shots or even if he’s not hitting shots or even if he’s playing defense or even if he’s getting cooked. Today, it felt like the Heat were trying to make a point, point and attack Sam Merrill defensively, especially with Darius Garland not on the floor. And they were having some, some forms of success. Obviously it’s the NBA guys are going to get buckets. But it felt like it was more egregious than it had in the earlier portions of the season. And for me to see Kenny Atkinson go away from a guy that he has raved about not only all series, but all year and raved about his defense, it told me that it’s not necessarily what the game necessarily calls for, but it’s which players he knows he can go to in different scenarios and why the trust has been built up that even if in a scenario where you haven’t really got enough chance to show yourself, you can still be taken out and there isn’t any hard feelings. That feels like what this group has meant. And also showing, of course, that they can back up Donovan Mitchell after a game where it felt like he saved them from a 1:1 series. And we’re having a very different conversation. Chris Fedor: Well, this is a meritocracy, and that’s what it comes down to. The other part of it is you got to play well. If you’re going to get those minutes, you got to play well. Sam couldn’t shoot his over three from the field, and he wasn’t playing the kind of defense that, you know, I think Kenny Atkinson has raved about throughout the course of the season. And I think when Miami realized that Darius Garland was not going to be available and Sam Merrill was inserted into the starting lineup, they were like, hey, we’ve got a different huntable player. Darius is the guy that we were hunting. Darius is the guy that we were having success against. 12 of 18 shooting against Darius so far in the first two games of this series. All right, well, he’s not out there. We’re not going to attack Jared Allen. That’s probably not the smartest thing to do. Probably don’t want to attack Evan Mobley. Just one defensive player of the year. Max Strus is just being really, really pesky. We know how competitive he is. We know how tough and physical he can be. He’s picking up Tyler Hero 94ft away from the basket at various points in this series. So, like, what’s another avenue to success on the offensive? Ah, Sam Merrill. Let’s go at him. So I think that was part of it. And I think Kenny has shown throughout the course of this year and he has backed up a lot of the things that he has said. You know, his decisions are going to be based on a lot of different factors. And one of those is, what are you giving to the team? Are you giving us the stuff that we need from you, that we demand from you? And the bottom line is beyond the core four. Yeah, I think it’s only the core four. Maybe beyond the core four in Tiger Room, probably this is the definition of a role player. Like, it’s not going to be an every night thing. That’s why you’re a role player, not a $15 million player, you’re not going to have consistent minutes, you’re not going to have consistent touches, you’re not going to have consistent shots. It’s, can you do the things that we need from you whenever it is that we call on you? Is that fair? Ethan Sands: Not always. Chris Fedor: But it’s the life of a role player and it’s Dean Wade’s reality and it’s Sam Merrill’s reality and it’s Isaac Okoro’s reality, and that’s why they’re on this team. So Dean Wade’s a part of this. He is part of the every night rotation. But there are certain matchups, there are certain situations where unfortunately for him, it’s going to be five minutes. It might be zero shots, but in another series it might be 15 minutes. In another game, it might be 20 minutes. That’s the life of a role player in the NBA. And, and that’s if Dean can continue to make an impact after going five minutes in game one, five minutes in game two, and then getting a big workload in game three and playing the stifling defense that he did and not making mistakes on the offensive end of the floor and not turning down shots, that’s all the Cavs need from him. And that does not mean that he’s going to get 22. He’s guaranteed to get 22 minutes in game four. It’s just everybody has a specific role on this team. Everybody has a specific time where they’re probably going to be called upon. Maybe this was Dean’s. Now it happened in a blowout, a 37 point blowout in game three of a lopsided series. But maybe this was the Dean Wade game. I don’t know. Maybe down the road there’s going to be another Dean Wade game, or maybe down the road there’s going to be a minute, one minute at the end of the fourth quarter or one minute at the end of the first half where they just need Dean to go lock somebody up and maybe that turns into the Dean Wade game. But that’s just the way it’s going to go. And when you’re a role player, there are no guarantees when it comes to a lot of different factors. But kudos to him because, you know, he played a heck of a game and he got singled out by multiple people following this one. Jimmy Watkins: It was a blowout. But I do think Dean Wade had a big hand in making it a blowout because you fall behind 10, 15 points, whatever. We know how quickly those leads can just, like, disappear in the NBA, you hit a few threes, you’re right back into it. But when. When. When the game is already hard for you and you gotta go up against this guy, man, it just feels harder. You know what I mean? Like, I think Dean Wade helped crush Miami’s spirit. Yeah, a little bit today because you don’t get to 40 points without the other team losing a little bit of fight. Right. I think that’s part Dean Wade stonewalling some of these dribble drives. Chris Fedor: Right. Jimmy Watkins: That takes a lot out of you. I actually think, Ethan, I were talking before the game, like, it doesn’t matter, but the one foul that the fat. That the refs did call on him today, that was total bs. I thought he totally beat Tyler Hero to the spot. And he didn’t say anything about it, but, like, that’s just. He was so locked in defensively today. I was thinking about Dean Wade in this context. Kenny. Kenny’s been talking all year with the chair down. Evan Mobley, do we close with two bigs? Do we close with a stretch four conversation? And he’s divvied up like. So if the Cavs are ahead and they want to protect a lead, he leans two picks. Because defense helps you protect leads, right? If they’re behind, maybe you go stretch forward because you want a little bit more offense. I could totally see Dean Wade slash Isaac Koro versus Sam Merrill being a similar type of thing. We’re ahead. We want to. We want to strangle this team like they did to the Heat today here. Go deal with Dean Wade. Coro, we’re behind. We need some juice. Same room. But playoff series are, like. They’re, like, living. Like living organisms in and of themselves. They change over time. And I just think, like, oh, this is. This is going to be a short series. Right? But in a longer series. I think having a card to play like this, like, playing the Dean Wade card and making life really hard on whoever in the future. Pascal Siaka, maybe. Like, it’s not just what he does in that game. It’s like, that puts miles on in this case that I’ve just made up. Chris Fedor: Pascal. Jimmy Watkins: Pascal Siakam for game six down the road. Like, this stuff all shows up. These are people. This. Like, this is. Injuries are not injuries, but, like, wind and durability and rhythm. Like, these are. These are things that carry from game to game. So I just think that that’s. Dean Wade’s a really cool weapon in that regard. Like, he can really suck the life out of an opponent when probably properly channeled. Ethan Sands: I think that’s a great point to me and obviously it helps having the depth that the Cavs do, especially when you talk about they had two players or let’s count Donovan Mitchell, roundup three players with 30 minutes tonight. Donovan 30 minutes max. Just 31. Evan Mobley 31. That’s it. Bam. Out of bio. Played 40 minutes tonight. Tyler Hero played 36 minutes. Davion Mitchell played 36 minutes because they had to and it still wasn’t close. And this is a series where nobody on the Cavs has played 40 minutes of the game. And if they win on Monday, depending on how long the series between Milwaukee and Indiana goes, they could have another week off. It’d be great to have that amount of time off for them, especially once they’ve already dealt with the rest versus Russ scenario to start this playoff series right? So now they understand what they have to do to be successful and stay in a rhythm, stay ready, but also stay healthy. That’s the most important part. And this is how I’m going to transition into our last portion of the podcast, which is Celtics Corner. Obviously we can look around the league if you guys feel so inclined, but the most important thing I think for this Cavs team is to break down their potential future Eastern Conference Finals opponent in the Boston Celtics, who ended up losing to the Orlando Magic on Friday night 95 to 93 in a game where Jayson Tatum was dealing with a bone bruised wrist but he still played. Christopher Zingis didn’t have a great game. Jaylen Brown played in that contest, but they were without Jrue Holiday and the physicality. And I’ve seen a lot of fans across the Internet and social media be like the physicality of the series is exactly why we didn’t as Cass fans want to play Orlando again in the first round because of how hard they play, but also how much they get into your body and how much physical damage they can cause to a team that is trying to extend into a later run. Obviously we know Paolo Banchero and Franz Wagner are going to get into you. They had 29 points and 32 points respectively. Those were the only two players outside of Wendell Carter Jr. To score in double figures and they still came away with the win over the Boston Celtics, which is surprising to me. Chris and Jimmy, what did you guys think about this game? Because I know you guys tend to watch even if we’re not covering them. Chris Fedor: I think the truth about the NBA playoffs, guys, is that the best team doesn’t always Win the championship, who’s playing best at the right time and who is healthiest. Oftentimes that’s going to be a determining factor, especially if you feel like there are enough, there are enough legitimate contenders to whatever that team is that is vulnerable because of injuries. You know, a lot of people, pooh, pooh. Indiana’s run through the east last year to the Eastern Conference because they came up against the Knicks, who were just so wounded at that point inside that they weren’t the Knicks, they were a shell of the Knicks. But that history will tell you that injuries play a large part in who wins a championship, who gets to the NBA Finals. And the vulnerability with the Celtics right now is health. It is a massive X factor when it comes to these playoffs because Boston might be the best team in the NBA. They might, they’re the reigning champions. They might be a cheat code, a two way cheat code, but they also might not be able to show that this playoff run because of what Jayson Tatum’s dealing with. And sure, you can sit there and you can say, well, he’s playing through it okay. There’s a difference between playing through an injury and being effective playing through an injury. And is it an injury where you can be effective playing through it? But you got to look at the Jayson Tatum situation. You’ve got to look at the Jaylen Brown situation because that seems like that is nagging him all season long, that it’s something that he’s going to have to look at in the off season. You can look at the Kristaps Porzingis situation because health is always an X factor when it comes to him. And he’s getting beat up physically by some of these Magic players in this series. And Jrue Holiday, he is a champion. He is a defensive menace. He is a guy who has never faced. He is a guy who is in their starting lineup, in their closing lineup, and he does so many different things for them from a focus standpoint, from an energy standpoint. He can also score at all three levels. So we’re talking about three incredibly important pieces that are dealing with injuries and another guy in Porzingis who you always have to worry about that with, that makes it more open. That makes it more possible for a team like the Cavs to get out of the Eastern Conference and get to the NBA Finals. That makes it more possible for a team like Oklahoma City or Cleveland to win the championship. So it’s like maybe Boston is the best team. Maybe they are, but they might not have the opportunity the way that They’re. Ethan Sands: They’re. Chris Fedor: They are right now. They may not have the opportunity to show that or prove that the Cavs were not going to beat the Celtics last year. They were not. No, not in the Eastern Conference semifinals. But there was a feeling after that series of, like, we didn’t even get a shot to give you our best shot. Donovan’s dragging his knee and missing the last two games. Jared Allen’s not around. Caris Laverte is dealing with issues. Darius Garland. This version of Darius Garland is very, very different. You know, so if Boston can’t give it their best shot, if Boston is not fully healthy, the Cavs absolutely can beat them four times in seven tries. Ethan Sands: So I wanted to just make a quick point on the Jaylen Brown injury just to add on to this, because, Chris, I think you made a great point. You said it. Well. He’s not only dealing with the achy injuries that have been plaguing him throughout the season. He also said that he dislocated his index finger during game three, I believe it was. So that’s also something to look at, depending on what hand it was and all these things. Jayson Tatum dealing with the wrist injury. Kristaps, as you mentioned, Jaylen Brown dealing with multiple injuries. Jrue Holiday’s injury, to be specific, is a hamstring strain. Like, none of these injuries are, like, subtle. They’re not something that you can just be like, oh, I can play through this and be like, to the same version of myself. No, usually these are, like, lingering injuries that can dwindle a team’s chances as making a championship run. Jimmy Watkins: Nobody needs a longer, a long break more than the Celtics right now. So this loss is just the fact that it’s like, it’s a loss and that you lost as lost. Now you play another game with these injuries that aren’t going away, and every. Every extra game that you play, there’s another bit of strain on Tatum’s wrist or an opportunity for something to go wrong at the rim. Again. Orlando Magic aren’t going to stop being physical now that they’re. Now that they know these guys are wounded, it’s another opportunity is. It’s more mileage on Jalen Brown’s knee. It’s more opportunities for Chris Tops for Zingus to fall. Weird. Drew Holiday’s older, more susceptible. This is like. Chris Fedor: And. Jimmy Watkins: And by the way, the Orlando Magic are, like, are built in a way to particularly accentuate this stuff because they’re so big and because they’re so switchable. So much of. Of Playing against them is you got to work hard, hard on offense like your individual creators have to work hard. Your Tatums and Brown have to beat the guy in front of them to get your offense kick started. And that’s just. You’re putting this. Losing this game is putting unnecessary miles on those guys. And you would think, I kind of do think that they’ll have a get right series a little bit against the Knicks. The Knicks have just not looked super competitive against the Celtics all you year. And the Knicks might be. They look much better in game three than they had in the first two games that series. But they might be in for a long series over there. I picked them in five. That’s certainly not the vibe I’m getting from that series after three games. Not the vibe I’m getting. So, you know, maybe the Knicks won’t be. Will be coming off like a body blow game. In football you play against team that ran the ball a bunch of times at you and you gotta play a tough team the next week. That’s a tough turnaround. Maybe, or maybe the Celtics are going to be in the same situation and that series goes longer than it needs to go. Right. And then the Cavs are waiting for you in theory. And that’s not. The Cavs are. Jimmy Watkins: So the Cavs are going to sweep the heat. I think if they make relatively quick work, say five or six games more five than six in the next round too. If like the freshness advantage would be massive for them. Knock on wood, everybody. Let’s assume that every, you know, Darius Garland is. This is more of a management thing, less of a. Less of something that could hurt him down the road. And everyone else stays relatively healthy. Right. That’s. It’s not always. We talked about this a couple weeks ago. It’s not always the best team that wins. Sometimes it’s just the healthiest, really good team. Ethan Sands: And I think everybody has seen exactly who the Cavs are and what they’re capable of. Obviously, Jimmy, you mentioned earlier into the podcast, winning in multiple ways gives them variations where they can prove that they’re not just going to rely on their shot, which to this point before game three had felt like that. Like they were relying so heavily on their three point shot in the playoffs. Today’s game felt like they leaned more into their defensive identity that they have claimed to continue to have. Even though Chris does not necessarily agree with that. Especially after having the number one offense in the NBA offseason, having the number one offense in the playoffs and the. Chris Fedor: Defense rating is 134. Like who? Who’s beating that man? Ethan Sands: I don’t know. Especially when you talk about Boston. Like Boston was supposed to be the team to keep the firepower up with the Cavs. Like, you have to score 110 points to beat Boston. You have to score 110 points to beat the Cleveland Cavaliers. Clearly, that’s not the case. Right, because neither team scored 100 points in the Boston Celtics Orlando Magic game, and Orlando still walked away with the win. So I definitely think the Boston Celtics are feeling a little bit of what the Cavs felt last season when facing Orlando. It could be a little bit longer of a series than they might have expected, especially coming into the year and how Orlando had to fight just to get into the number seven seed. Chris Fedor: Somebody was sitting next to me in press row today and they’re like, oh my God, this is an atrocity from the Heat defense. And I said, do you understand what you’re up against? This is one of the best offenses in NBA history. This isn’t a reflection of Miami’s defense. This also isn’t a reflection of the Cavs defense. This is just about how great and how versatile the Cavs offense is. Like, Miami is making all these different decisions because they are so worried about how they’re going to guard the Cavs because they’ve tried so many different things and none of it has worked. Like, this isn’t a reflection of Eric Spoelstra as a tactician. It’s. It’s not the plane, sir. It’s the pilot. Ethan Sands: All right. And I think that’s a perfect way to wrap up today’s podcast. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly questions for our hey Chris episodes, where we answer questions from our subscribers and give them insight based on anything they want to know and create a Cavs community for everybody. But to do so, you have to sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue button are at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out. 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